Manisha Anjali on the poetry of dreams, dahl and duende
Manisha Anjali is a writer and an artist. She is the founder of Neptune, a research and documentation platform for dreams, visions, and hallucinations.
Manisha is the author of Naag Mountain, published by Giramondo in April 2024. Naag Mountain was shortlisted for the Judith Wright Calanthe Award at the Queensland Literary Awards in 2024.
She grew up in Suva, Fiji, surrounded by nature, food and books. She has a deep connection to storytelling and mysticism, which we explore in our chat. Living Wurundjeri and Bunurong Land currently, maintaining that connection is something Manisha finds extremely important to do.
Talking about art and food, she says "...they make life worth living. Food is a physical necessity and art is the soul’s necessity, so you’re feeing your soul with art and you’re feeding your body with food and you just need both to enjoy this time on earth."
Manisha shares her dahl recipe with us and explains that growing up she’d have it almost every day. It was the foundation for everything else she ate. She associates it with a comfortable and homely feeling.
Manisha by Jessie Prince for Tula
A QUICK WHIP AROUND THE INGREDIENTS THAT MAKE UP MANISHA
PRONOUNS: She / Her
HOMETOWN: Suva, Fiji and Tāmaki Makaurau, Aotearoa. Currently making art on Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung and Bunurong peoples of the Kulin Nation
JOB DESCRIPTION: Writer, Artist, Researcher
Manisha by Nisha Hunter
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Manisha: I'm primarily a writer and I work with poetry and performance. I've just written a book, a narrative poem. So a book length poem told in three parts. My brain had to restructure itself to occupy such a big narrative - the biggest narrative I've written.
Exploring dreams or going deeper into the mystery has always been my thing. I guess I wanted to engage with other people in their dreams, and I was just really curious about what others were dreaming. And I guess that's how it started. Initially, I was just interviewing people about their dreams, and then the pandemic hit Australia and that's when I started the Covid Dream Journal and opened it up to everybody. And I was so excited because I was able to do this guerrilla research on what we're all dreaming during our shared experience or this shared this collective isolation. And also every just seeing that it's true, like every dream does function as a story within itself and that everyone is a storyteller because we all have dreams. And then the School of Dreams actually started before Neptune.
I fell into teaching and facilitating workshops accidentally as I was doing a writers residency in Sydney. And as part of that, I had to do some kind of a public engagement. So I thought, okay, I'll do a little workshop using some ideas from my own practice. And it was the first dream workshop and I loved it and it went so well. And then I went on to create a four week one. And so, yeah, School of Dreams has been happening for six years now.
Claire: I read a quote where you say you had a “dreamy tropical childhood growing up in Suva”. I'd love to hear more about that. More of that quote was that it was “a world where the living in the dead and dreams and reality were intertwined”. That sounds extraordinary, and I'd love to sort of unpack that.
Manisha: Yeah. So it would just be things like… a rule for everyone, for example, is if you've got long hair, you're meant to tie it up as soon as the sun goes down because the devil loves long hair and will possess you or kill you or abduct you. And it's just a thing. So we just grow up having the fear of the devil or Satan or evil spirits - it is very much a thing. I think there's even another one about not showering at night if you're a woman for the same reason, the same devil. All of those stories are just so entwined and such a part of life and is so much a ritual as well. My family's Hindu. So then there's all the Hindu spirituality and rituals and beliefs entwined with it. Okay, and island beliefs. So, yeah, it's like, a spirit infested place. And it really was a dreamy tropical childhood. I was just surrounded by books and I think I was left to my own devices a lot. And it was also the 90s, so there weren't really any phones or computers that you could have fun with. So I definitely had the experience of just being outside a lot or being with my books a lot. And I had my own social life as a kid. Like, you know, I could just walk around, talk to neighbours and yeah, it was, it was just great. I also, I grew up in Suva, but my mum is from an island called Taveuni and it's a tiny little island where people just live on one side of it. And so I'd go there for summers and my grandparents just lived across the road from the sea. Well, everyone did, and that's the most magical island on earth. And it's the only place in the world where the tagimoucia flower grows.
Zoltan: So it sounds like you had a very rich and quite vivid childhood - remembering the plants and being so connected to to the natural world. I'd love to know what you were eating.
Manisha: I was eating the most amazing food. Yeah. Again, I like a combination of Indo Fijian food and its okay food. So lots of curries. I follow a plant based diet now, but I come from like a pretty big meat eating family. So lots of seafood, lots of chicken, chicken curries, lamb. My favourite dish of all time is pilau. And it's made with like a special Fiji masala. And my mum cooks it with either lamb or chicken and it's divine. So, yeah, lots of that and lots of dahl and coconut milk.
Claire: That sounds extraordinary. I have a little excerpt of your writing and this piece just hit me. This actually hit me the way that this this particular flavour or taste hits me. The line is “…The only way to experience the zest of ancient lemons is to open your mouth when it rains”.
Manisha: Yeah, I was thinking a lot about, renunciation and and rebirth. And the duende as well, which is what we talked about in the School of Dreams. And I was doing a lot of reading about ancient women poets from India who just walked around naked and renounced their lives as wives and mothers and then became like devotees to immaterial gods. And they're walking around naked in medieval India writing poetry or more speaking poetry. So, yeah, like that line and other poems from that era of my writing, I think comes from that place - it's funny that you mention it because I feel like I've returned to that place. Like I'm back reading about those same women poets and thinking about another pilgrimage to India, perhaps.
Zoltan: It's just it's so inspiring hearing you talk about this connection to your ancestry, but also a connection to storytelling from other cultures as well. Living in Melbourne in 2024, in the inner city, how do you stay connected to these more ancient and more immaterial, more magical places?
Manisha: It's really hard. Yeah. I think the true answer to that is by being a nerd and spending a lot of time alone. Yeah. And just getting back to my books and back to my writing and I think having boundaries with all the things that make the city what it is and all the things that make it enjoyable to live in. I think it's exactly that, just taking some time away. But I always have other places in my life, like my dreamy tropical childhood. I feel like it's just always in my mind. Like it's just set me up for everything that I do now, everything that really ignites me, I think. And then with all of my interests in ancient India and that being this almost mythic ancestry that I don't really have access to. So yeah, I’ve just got these like, not imaginary places. They're very real, but the ideas of those places are like always kind of floating around in my head and they just walk with me wherever I go as well. So, yeah, they're never out of mind. It's just always more about, ‘how can I get get back to just being in that place again?’, which is challenging in the day to day.
Zoltan: Yeah, that that sums it up perfectly.
Claire: Do you find yourself cooking to reconnect in that way?
Manisha: Actually, I do. I do feel like I reconnect with like my family when I'm cooking. But I think cooking in general, this feels really meditative and peaceful and satisfying. And yeah, it's a wonderful feeling and it's so practical as well. Again, it's so different from writing, for example. It is so cerebral and you can just over intellectualise everything, but you can't do that with cooking. It's all just sort of felt and really sensory. And yeah, there is so much story in food as well.
NIBBLES / QUICKFIRE QUESTIONS
Zoltan: Who is your favourite cook?
Manisha: My mum.
Claire: A prophetic Kitchen Queen.
Manisha: Yeah. I should say my dad as well. He's also a great cook. They're they're both wonderful - I’m very spoilt.
Zoltan: Love that.
Claire: And who's your favourite artist?
Manisha: Definitely Lorca and his poems, and his way of thinking and his visions for sure. But there's, there's so many.
Zoltan: What's your favourite kitchen sound?
Manisha: It's when the seeds start talking. When they just start…
Zoltan: Dancing?
Manisha: Yeah, they're dancing and they're talking. They're like, “Okay, you can put the onion”. And now I think that's the sound that I look out for. And like: there it is. I love that sound.
Claire: I would love to know, can the rhythm of poetry be translated into the kitchen or do you find that there's a rhythm to how you prepare food?
Manisha: I think a lot of people might if they're watching me cook. It might look really chaotic to them. And this is because they've told me and there's like a million dishes and but I know exactly what I'm doing. And I think I've inherited this from my mum, who is a multi-tasker with cooking and will have like the four burners all on cooking different things at once. And it's all happening. She's got it figured out and my dad's very different. He can only just cook one thing at a time and like won't even cook the rice at the same time as another thing. So yeah, I'm definitely… maybe multi-dimensional is a better word for it, nice word. But in terms of bringing the rhythm of poetry to cooking, yeah, absolutely. I think cooking is really poetic and timing is everything, I guess. And you get to use more senses in cooking than you do with poetry. Like, I feel like I rely on my ear a lot for poetry and like, speaking it... But it's so much about trusting the ear. And with cooking, there's, yeah, you can utilise every sense you have. You have to.
Zoltan: I think that's why it's such a beautiful parallel to having an art practice. Like when you realise how sensory cooking is, it becomes such a beautiful extension of your work. And, you know, this sense is probably one of the most important in cooking. What's your favourite kitchen smell?
Manisha: I'm sure everyone says this, but probably the smell of garlic and onion cooking together… Oh I've been toasting lots of oranges recently to make my own granola, and it's just the best.
Zoltan: That is the best. I've never heard of citrus on granola.
Manisha: Yeah. Orange.
Claire: Is that just going straight on the top, or are you putting that in the oven to, dry it?
Manisha: After it's come out of the oven? Yeah. Once it's cooled down and then, yeah, it’s fresh, zesty zest and dried fruit.
Claire: Okay. So I'm taking this back to a real childhood thing. It's interesting because you may not have grown up with this because you did not grow up here. So I don't know what it's going to be like for you... Is Vegemite part of your life yet? And what is your Vegemite to butter ratio.
Manisha: I mean I probably only have Vegemite on toast like once a year, but, I don't put too much Vegemite on. Yeah.
Claire: Is it more like a like a 20:80? 20% Vegemite maybe 80 butter?
Manisha: But I wouldn't put too much butter on that either. So maybe it'll be like a 50:50. Ooh…
Claire: That's good for like your annual Vegemite situation.
Manisha: Yeah, that's good.
Zoltan: It feels like a celebration to me. The “annual” toast celebration.
Claire: When it's good. God, it's so good.
Zoltan: You only need a once a year.
Manisha: Yeah.
Claire: In terms of the “starving artist” concept. Is that something that you have come up against in the the nuts and bolts of your industry or your working life, especially as a writer, but even just as somebody who's working freelance in the artistic community?
Manisha: Yeah, I think I definitely lived my life as a starving artist, like all through my 20s, even though it was troublesome at times. I think I, I did romanticise it at that time for sure, but… Yeah. Now my thinking around that has definitely changed and I'm, very much like, okay, yep, I was doing that at that time and my focus is definitely more on putting roots down and building sort of solid foundations and having a more solid practice I think comes with that as well. And I think this maturity has only come with age, but I'm really into it.
Zoltan: What advice would you give your younger self now with this time passing? You said before that you romanticised it and that kind of has… evaporated as you've gotten older and you're focusing on different things now. What would you say to your younger, romantic, starry eyed, “Starving Artist Self”?
Manisha: I think early advice would be to have taken my practice more seriously. I think being caught up in the romanticism of everything that I was in my 20s as doing so many different things. I think a part of me, like, I really thought that everything was temporary in a way. Like I didn't, I don't think I was really deepening my practice as much as I could have in that time. And I was also very susceptible to distraction as well. So, yeah, I think a little bit more discipline would have been good for my younger self, but I'm also still… like, I still worked really hard during that time with what I had as well. So I do feel proud of my younger self in many ways too.
Zoltan: Are the things that are maybe starting to develop where you might have some ideas on how? Creative people, writers maybe specifically, but artists in general could be better resourced?
Manisha: Yeah. I think the one thing that will like, bleed out onto everything else is time - time and money. And I guess like going back to that old Virginia Woolf essay, A Room Of One's Own, like, you need money in a room of one's own, like you need time and your own space. And if you had that as a creative person, then your mental health would be good and you wouldn't need to take on so many things. Or. Or maybe if you've got sort of that time to focus on a particular thing that you're really excited about, then it'll help you kind of put away things that you're also excited about, but maybe work out a more realistic timeline in which to do it all as well.
Claire: That kind of leads me on to what I wanted to ask before - you said that art has been at the core of your growth and survival in this world. Can you open that up a little bit more?
Manisha: I feel like when I was a child, my imagination developed so much because of all the books I had and because I got to really spend time creating, which is, I guess compared to my parents childhoods - they had to work in the field and go to school and they were just constantly doing some kind of labour and never had the chance to cultivate that imaginal space. So it's definitely a luxury. And I think, yeah, for my survival in this world, I think what I meant was it's just the space that you automatically retreat to or dive into. Yeah. Am I backing away from this reality now? Yet something I need to figure out, I think… it's a place that I know and that I'm really comfortable. And if it wasn't for that place, I don't know. I think I'm very much still learning how to do the tangible things.
Zoltan: And it is I mean, it is a process that you go through as your practice changes as well. To a whole level though, personally or conceptually, what do you think the role of the artist is in the world?
Manisha: I think the role of the artist is to be translators of things that aren't necessarily said or things that are unseen. One of my beliefs about artists is that we get to travel to many different realms and be travellers, and it's really our responsibility to go to other places, whether that's like dreams or out in ourselves or literally going to another place physically, but to bring back lessons or messages for wherever it is that you that you live, like wherever your community is. So yeah, I think the role of the artist is definitely in service to the people and the time in which you're working and as well.
Claire: As you personally traverse those different worlds have you got practices or rituals in place to to take care of yourself? Sort of mentally or spiritually or physically?
Manisha: Yeah. Cooking is definitely one of those practices I feel that's like just like really grounding in something that can bring you back to earth. When you fly away too far. But I do have physical practices as well. I'm a member of the Aquatic Centre, so I go to the pool a few times a week, which I love, and a bit of yoga as well, which I took up a few years ago. And that's been amazing. And actually working with body and breath - I'd never really found a physical practice before that was poetry translated. It just made so much sense.
Zoltan: Speaking of cooking as being this practice that nourishes you. Do you have some go to nourishing meals when you're feeling, you know, like you need to take care of yourself?
Manisha: It's definitely my dahl, which is the recipe that I want to share as well. But it is that one meal if I need grounding and I just want to be comforted by food, it's dahl and rice and that is my everything.
Zoltan: And you've got everything in that that you need as much nutrients - so much nourishing! Like even down to the texture, the spices…
Claire: A good big amount of fat…
Zoltan: Yeah.
Claire: Okay. We're going to get into that, but I have one last question to complete this little section. I love what you’ve said about completing a work. You’ve said that “whenever I release a new piece, I relinquish all meaning making to the reader. It's a form of self-annihilation, which, for me, completes the creative cycle”. I find that extraordinary. It really touched me because I make a lot of visual art. And for me, I physically hand over my my work to people, and then it has a new life. And and that's kind of it. And I always talk about my work like it's my baby going to somebody else. I say “here is your art baby and thank you so much”. So in terms of finishing these works and going into this… this self-annihilation process, I want to know what keeps you going back to make more once you've gotten the work out in the world? You've handed it over. What's getting you returning back to it, and what keeps you hopeful about making more in the future and moving further in your practice?
Manisha: I think what keeps me making more is eternal questions that keep popping up in my mind. And recently it's been, I think, questions for things that in my new book that's out there are. The book asks a lot of questions and I feel like those questions can be resolved or explored. I don't know if anything can be resolved, but explored in another project. Yeah. So I feel like I maybe even wrote it sort of setting myself up for, okay, I will do this later, but it has to go in here now and then. That's a kind of a starting point. So yeah, and I do feel like all my work just kind of speaks back to each other in some way and in some way it's really just like one big long work that I've sort of given titles to and packaged up and sent it out at random points. But yeah, I still feel like I'm on the same same journey with it all.
NIBBLES / QUICKFIRE QUESTIONS:
Zoltan: What's your favourite kitchen utensil or gadget?
Manisha: Mortar and pestle.
Claire: What is your writing tool of choice?
Manisha: Just a notebook and a pen. Unlined. A book and a black pen.
Claire: And a black pen. Fine liner or ballpoint?
Manisha: I've got a ballpoint at the moment which is not my favourite, but a pen’s a pen.
Claire: I also know that you really love to write your words, cut them up and rearrange them. I also know that because you taught me how to do this. Tell me about this.
Manisha: So that's the cut up method.
Claire: Cut up method?
Manisha: Yeah, I learnt about that from reading about William Burroughs and Brion Gysin. And that was one of the experimental writing techniques they were doing. They were cutting up newspaper articles and rearranging the words. And as they were doing that, they realised that their new arrangements would often say something about the actual article itself, like a little prediction about that news piece. So yeah, they spoke about the cut up method being like a tool of divination. I think there's a quote like when you cut into the present, the future leaks out. So usually I will write something and then scramble up my words and just to see like what new arrangements I can make or what's something I haven't noticed before, or what pairings of words or sounds I haven't noticed before. And it's not always that I will use what I've cut up, but it's just good to see.
Zoltan: Got it. Feels like such a hard turn to go from something so profound to this next question. But hey, it's a rollercoaster. Can you please share a kitchen disaster story or a funny cooking story?
Manisha: It's kind of a sad one. I was trying to… I was making a cheesecake for my dad. It was his birthday. And this is back at my parents house… I got all the ingredients and made the cheesecake, put it in the oven. And then there was just all this black smoke everywhere and everyone was coughing. It was really bad. And it was because the oven tray, there was, there was just something wrong. Like there was something in it that was burning that I couldn't see. And so we rescued the cake. And my parents were like, “No, it's okay. Look, it'll be fine”. It was not fine. And yeah, and it just tasted like smoke.
Zoltan: Smoked cheesecake. You might have invented something.
Manisha: Yeah. And I didn't even need them to be nice about it, but they just kept doing being nice.
Claire: If we looked in your pantry, what is always in there?
Manisha: I'll always have a range of spices. I always have few different kinds of chilli. A few different kinds of lentils. A few different kinds of oils is… I think a characteristic ingredient would definitely be chilli. Like I always have a chilli pickle or a chilli oil. Or usually I'll have many different kinds. Pickles… I always have like a mango pickle or a lime pickle in the fridge.
Claire: Fresh or homemade or do you buy it?
Manisha: No, I don't know how to make it at this stage, but I love it.
Zoltan: I like it. That's hopeful. Is there a stereotype or myth about writers that drives you nuts?
Manisha: All I can think of is that people think that writers are nerds. But it's true. And it doesn't drive me nuts. It is what it is.
Zoltan: So now we've arrived at your recipe. I'm very excited to discover the recipe that you are going to share with us. Can you tell us? Well, you've told us what it is. So the suspense, the build up of this doesn't really work as well. But why is dahl important to you? Why did you choose this dish?
Manisha: I chose this dish because growing up I would have it almost every single day or a few times a week. So it's just a staple. And the kind of foundation for everything else. You always have rice and dahl, and then you'll have like chicken curry or some greens or potato or a combination of it like anything, and like pickle as well. So it's always a base. And so, yeah, that's why I associate it with that comfy, homely feeling.
Zoltan: Can you walk us through how to make it?
Manisha: Yes. So. Sometimes I'll just cook with just red lentils, but a combination of like red and yellow and like mung dahl is really nice. Just having lots of beautiful, different coloured dahls in there and give them a good rinse till the water runs clear. And the bring it to boil and add turmeric and salt while it's boiling. And while it's doing that in a separate pan, get your mustard seeds and cumin seeds and just a little pinch of each. And when they start talking, add an onion and garlic, some curry leaves as well, and cook all of that up. And once the lentils have cooked, add in the onion spice mixture and take it off the heat and serve.
Claire: How do we know that we've done it well?
Manisha: You just know. You know, just know you'll feel it in your soul. Yeah.
Claire: I just know it's going to be soothing and grounding and so deeply nourishing.
Zoltan: Give us an idea of other things we'd serve with it because it can be the main event but also, it can be part of more of a scattering of other dishes too. What are some of your favourite things to serve with dahl?
Manisha: Classic one is greens. Any greens you've got on hand or whatever you find at the market. And just really simple greens like that and added garlic and lemon can be really nice. Potatoes are a bit of a fave, so make some masala potatoes. And yeah, having some pickle and chilli is a must. Though you can have anything with the dahl. But yeah, I'd say greens be my go to.
Zoltan: Where in Melbourne would you get a good dahl actually?
Claire: Apart from your house.
Manisha: Yeah. This cute little place called the Diners, which is right near our house. And they make this Pakistani style dahl called Dahl Mash. And they say that it's with white lentils - I've never quite had a dahl like it. And that's the only place that I've got in that style of dahl from. I'm really into it.
Zoltan: Yeah. I mean you also live in an area where it's so overwhelmingly diverse and food heavy.
Claire: This is in Footscray.
Zoltan: This is in Footscray. Yeah. Do you have any other spots, any recommendations for people who might be out in your area?
Manisha: And I don't even know where to start. I love Ras Dashen. I've forgotten the name of it now because we keep calling it the ‘Supreme Master’. That's not the name of the place, but it's a Vietnamese vegan restaurant and it's part of so many… there's this woman who calls herself the ‘Supreme Master’ and she's opened up these vegan restaurants all around the world. And when you go into this restaurant, there's this television screen at the back and it's called ‘Supreme Master TV’. And it's really strange and wonderful. And then underneath the TV, there are all of these books that she's written, well, about veganism. They're essentially about veganism and loving the world. And when you look up articles about her, like there’s tabloid style articles calling her a cult leader. But she's not really doing anything wrong. She's just opening up these vegan restaurants. But she does call herself the ‘Supreme Master’. Yeah, that's…
Claire: Red flag number one. Yeah.
Manisha: And she's very glamorous. Like, she looks amazing, and she's got dyed blonde hair and she looks supreme! It's a full vegan menu, and it's full of, strange fake meat, so you never really know what you're getting, but it's a really fun place to go.
Claire: It sounds incredible. I think that we need to head West for this.
Manisha: Footscray is just so whimsical and it feels very dreamlike.
Claire: Well, threading that back to your art and then also linking it back to food… we believe that they are so deeply linked, inextricably linked and as our last little bite with you we want to know what moves you about art and food or how your life has changed because of art and food together?
Manisha: I think they are things that definitely make life worth living. Food is a physical necessity. And I guess art is probably the Soul's necessity. And so you're feeding your soul with art. Then you're feeding your body with food and you just need both to enjoy this time on Earth.
Zoltan: That sums things up beautifully.
Zoltan: Thank you so much for chatting with us, Manisha. It was such a pleasure and such a joy. And now we can't wait to feed you.
Manisha: Thank you so much for having me.
